Thread: Interesting SEO debate...

An articulate and badly needed riposte from Search Engine Land in relation to Jason's original "SEO is bulls@#t" post.
Why The SEO Folks Were Mad At You, Jason

I find it depressing that you have so much mud slinging among the whole gamut of web related industries.

Hmmm, maybe I'm biased because I've been working in this industry in a hands-dirty, production capacity for so many years, but I'm inclined to agree with what the fellow says. Only to a certain extent though, of course. I'm aware that there are plenty of SEO'ers on this forum and I'm not trying to sling mud myself; simply to tell things how I see them - whether I'm misguided or not.

It's seems to me however, that there has been an unprecedented influx of SEO 'gurus' in this industry. Like accessibility 'gurus' before them, many are offering empty promises to their clients based on scare stories and many conduct their business in a very underhanded manner; i.e. by making unsolicited calls to website owners and b**ching about and criticising their current site/designer. I've been on the receiving end of this a few times in the last year or so from several SEO'ers that shall remain nameless. They made the schoolboy error of contacting clients with which I have an excellent relationship. Never mind that these morons didn't have a clue what they were talking about; I could have categorically and comprehensively refuted their arguments after drinking 20 pints of Guinness. At any rate, this kind of behavior is completely unacceptable to me. Sell your services by all means. Poach clients by all means. Just do it on the strength of your own product/offering. Slating your competitors to their clients in order to scare them into using your services is just asking for a swift kick to the balls. Aaaanyway, there's been a lot of this going on with SEO'ers in the last couple of years and it's not on. Some of the crappier Web companies do the same thing but I've not noticed it as much as SEO'ers over the last few months.

Now I'm not saying SEO and SEM aren't important. Nor am I saying that there's no place for search professionals. Far from it. It's a niche area that, it could be argued, holds enough weight to warrant a full-time vocation. Fair enough. However, I think that unless you're really, really good at it then you shouldn't be selling yourself as a professional at all. For example, there is no way I could take an SEO professional seriously without a very good understanding on XHTML, CSS and semantic markup. Yet many SEO'ers sites are code soup. If you're going to be a SEO'er, learn everything you need to know first. Don't just look some stuff up on Google and start offering your services as a professional until you're knowledgeable enough and you're practicing what you preach on every level.

Having said all of this, there are some very wise search professionals in Ireland but, IMO, many (but not all) are simply 'snake oil salesmen'.

/awaits imminent s**t storm/

Originally Posted by TheMenace

Hmmm, maybe I'm biased because I've been working in this industry in a hands-dirty, production capacity for so many years, but I'm inclined to agree with what the fellow says. Only to a certain extent though, of course. I'm aware that there are plenty of SEO'ers on this forum and I'm not trying to sling mud myself; simply to tell things how I see them - whether I'm misguided or not.

It's seems to me however, that there has been an unprecedented influx of SEO 'gurus' in this industry. Like accessibility 'gurus' before them, many are offering empty promises to their clients based on scare stories and many conduct their business in a very underhanded manner; i.e. by making unsolicited calls to website owners and b**ching about and criticising their current site/designer. I've been on the receiving end of this a few times in the last year or so from several SEO'ers that shall remain nameless. They made the schoolboy error of contacting clients with which I have an excellent relationship. Never mind that these morons didn't have a clue what they were talking about; I could have categorically and comprehensively refuted their arguments after drinking 20 pints of Guinness. At any rate, this kind of behavior is completely unacceptable to me. Sell your services by all means. Poach clients by all means. Just do it on the strength of your own product/offering. Slating your competitors to their clients in order to scare them into using your services is just asking for a swift kick to the balls. Aaaanyway, there's been a lot of this going on with SEO'ers in the last couple of years and it's not on. Some of the crappier Web companies do the same thing but I've not noticed it as much as SEO'ers over the last few months.

Now I'm not saying SEO and SEM aren't important. Nor am I saying that there's no place for search professionals. Far from it. It's a niche area that, it could be argued, holds enough weight to warrant a full-time vocation. Fair enough. However, I think that unless you're really, really good at it then you shouldn't be selling yourself as a professional at all. For example, there is no way I could take an SEO professional seriously without a very good understanding on XHTML, CSS and semantic markup. Yet many SEO'ers sites are code soup. If you're going to be a SEO'er, learn everything you need to know first. Don't just look some stuff up on Google and start offering your services as a professional until you're knowledgeable enough and you're practicing what you preach on every level.

Having said all of this, there are some very wise search professionals in Ireland but, IMO, many (but not all) are simply 'snake oil salesmen'.

/awaits imminent s**t storm/

Believe it or not, I agree with a lot of what he said too. Not all, but a lot. The fundamentals of SEO are not rocket science. They are pretty much simply following search engines TOS. There was plenty of talk on the "5% that IS rocket science" (You know what I'm talking about). Of course there are some fine lines(or hats) that need to be researched. That in itself takes a bit of work.

Yes, there are a lot of "Snake Oil SEOs" especially in Ireland. And ICAN relate to your reports on poachers. (I thought that was very smart!) but not all are like that. And to be honest, it does not bother me. It bothers me when someone in the SAME industry is apparently tarring everyone but themselves with the same brush. I know...you said "Not all". I will agree, there are very few in Ireland that have the talent to call themselves SEO professionals, but it's such a young industry here, that is not all bad. There were many self proclaimed "Professional Web Designers" in the past decade and they made a balls of it. They did pretty much the same thing as the self proclaimed professional SEOs here. BUT, as a result of all the shoddy work done by those "professionals" in the past over 80% of our projects are now redesign jobs. To be honest, I can see that happening with SEO. The strongest will emerge from the flames. Survival of the fittest and all that.

If we want to combat the current "Snake Oil Salesmen" it all comes back to client education.

Yes, there are a lot of "Snake Oil SEOs" especially in Ireland.

They're everywhere.

Today I've spoken to one guy who got his new site (Irish tourism niche) built with SEO keywords in it, and a second from the UK that has dealt with UK and Indian 'SEO's. The former is trying to get his Dec 2006 7 page site (with it's nice Flash splash page that JS redirects) into a niche that is predominated by pre 2000 domains, the latter has a load or doorway pages. Not there fault - they just relied on 'professionals' to advise them.

I really need to write up some good posts while I'm in the UK next week. I'm sad and dejected now because I had to tell the poor bloke with the Irish site that he hasn't a hope of getting traffic in year 1 for the 'targeted keywords'

If anyone wants some paid work doing link-building for him give me a shout.

*For example, there is no way I could take an SEO professional seriously without a very good understanding on XHTML, CSS and semantic markup.* IMO that's more a personal bias than a sine qua non, none of the above play any major part in getting a site ranking in Google, it's like psychiatrists looking down their noses at psychologists. But I think we've had this argument before :-)

You'll get snake oil types in all markets and industries, but SEO / Marketing is probably more visible than others...

Originally Posted by blacknight

You'll get snake oil types in all markets and industries, but SEO / Marketing is probably more visible than others...

Well. Maybe not as much as Web design.

Originally Posted by TheMenace

Well. Maybe not as much as Web design.

Try hosting

It gets quite silly

It’s not really difficult to see where this guy is coming from and to be honest he isn’t far off the mark from what he said. OK he may have exaggerated the numbers a bit but it really doesn’t take much to find the so called SEO pros that fling the BS just to catch a client.

Another thing is people offering SEO services that really have no clue about SEO. Take this for an example: cheapseoservices.com/offers/ (yes, doesn’t deserve a link back).

Now, this guy is a member of DP and I have watched his posts for a good while and every now & again he really pisses me off, especially when someone looks for SEO services on DP and he claims that he can provide such a service. The only things this bloke can give are links from a bunch of blogger blogs that he has created and for the most part are interlinked.

That is only one example of the thousands of so called SEO people that claim they know their stuff and provide a great service. Of course anyone who doesn’t know the industry is going to see the more of the negative side than the positive and why? Simply because the true gurus don’t brag about what they can do and are more humble about it. Take Dave and Richard here, two people that I “think” know what they are doing in regards to SEO but I don’t see them bombarding forums looking for business or trying to BS their way into having people believe they know the industry.

Another mistake many people make, including those interested in SEO, is thinking someone is an SEO guru when actually they aren’t.

Take my blog for an example. I have had people contact me requesting my SEO services because they thought I “knew” what I was talking about. For each person I always gave the same explanation that I am not an SEO guru and the reason for the blog was to document my own views on things in hope that others would find it useful. Jeepers, would you pay me to do your SEO?

Shoemoney is another example of this. People tend to think he is an SEO guru and was even included in the DP pole for the best SEO guru of 2006. The bloke is not an SEO guru and even admits himself; he made his earnings from advertising. What I really like about Shoemoney is that he plays SEO people at their own game by fishing for link bait and for the most part it works and why? People follow him like flies round cow dung because they know he makes great money online but always forget the fact that he is not SEO.

If Jason knew who Shoemoney was he would probably think he is a prime example of the SEO industry. Just because someone online has a popular site regarding search engines, websites and making money doesn’t make them an SEO pro, something that people make a mistake on. Have you read Shoemoneys post on this whole topic? It’s actually funny because as I said Shoe knows how to play the SEO industry at their own game, or at least those who claim to know the industry.

Sorry, bit of a long ramble even though I had more to say.

2 things:

1. What exactly is SEO? It seems to be different things to different people. I like to think of myself as someone who helps people acquire and convert traffic. (dillusional, I know )
2. I'm willing to bet you know a lot more about SEO than you give yourself credit for.