What price do you charge?

[davidbehan]

Hi,

I'm just wondering what price range you charge clients for a brochure website. I'm asking this question because I came across a site (www.RIPE.ie) that offer web design services for 595 euro and 795 euro for a flash version. To me, it looks like they're a template agency... in that they use templates from the big template websites out there (I could be wrong). I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that cause there is probably a market for this work still. What I'm wondering is out of the design/development companies out there, what price range are you in? Here's a standard spec for a brochure website with about 20 pages, no flash, no database or cms, and all content/logos/photography provided:

Consultancy
Graphic & Website Design
XHTML/CSS Coding (standard compliant)
Website Setup
Content Insertion & Formatting
Standard Search Engine Optimisation
Website Hosting

To be forth coming, my pricing would be in the range of 3k-5k for this. I'm just interested in hearing what others have to say on the matter. I suppose it's all to do with you get what you pay for, how you can justify the expense, the perceived value of the service you are providing, etc.

On a side note... I remember my first paid job... it was for the student union of my college about 6 years ago. I asked advice off a lecturer about what I should charge and they said to go with 100 punt per page. There was 16 pages and I was really scared giving them the price. I think I ended up halving the price in the end. It's mad thinking back and thinking how your attitude changes overtime as your skills, experience and confidence grow.

Rgds,

Dave

 

[Redfly]

Hey Dave.
I will agree here with your range. For that spec, which is on pretty much the lowest end we usually go, we would charge 5k.

We stopped working on projects less that that about a year ago, although we do take on one or two odd ones that are just in need of some help.

In this industry, you have to educate your client and market the value the website is to them. I have read Brendon Sinclairs Web design business kit from sitepoint and it covers this a lot. There is nothing regarding coding or actual web design in it. It's all about the client side of stuff and charging what you're worth. Perceived value.

The clients that want a 100 page super flash ecommerce store with all the latest ajax bells and whistles and want a 12 month SEO contract signed all for less than 5k are not the clients you want.

Good clients know what they want. Most good clients know they will have to pay for that if they want it done right.

I have seen ripe and they are simply Templatemonster resellers. Their own site is a TM template. In fact, I'm quite sure it is against TM TOS to claim the designs as your own. (I don't know for sure if Ripe are actually doing that).

We have turned down so much business because most people who want a website for less than 5k want more than 10k worth of work and sometimes, it's impossible to get through to them. A lot of our business is actually businesses that come to us after having a design done by sub 5k company that they were not happy with.

As I have said over and over, it's all about educating your potential client. That's one of the reasons YOU have a website.


It's late, I better stop ranting, but there is a good discussion on this over at the enterprise-ireland mailing list.

 

[RedCardinal]

Here's a standard spec for a brochure website with about 20 pages, no flash, no database or cms, and all content/logos/photography provided:

Consultancy
Graphic & Website Design
XHTML/CSS Coding
Website Setup
Content Insertion & Formatting
Standard Search Engine Optimisation
Website Hosting

How many man-hours do you think that kind of spec would take? TBH, with no back-end programming or content creation involved I think that paying over €2-4k for something like this would be criminal. (Just in case anyone wonders, I not a designer.)

Let's call a spade a spade - the above is often going to be 2 templates (homepage and content page) and I think the last 2 points in the spec are extraneous. In fairness, I don't know how long it takes to design (that's why I ask about man-hours), but the above spec doesn't even include a modicum of copywriting.

For €5-6k+ I would expect a full CMS (most especially if I'm going to get hammered when I want to add a new product page).

Of course, if you design very innovative and creative front-end then paying a premium for that design is accepted.

Perhaps I'm going too far against the grain here?

 

[ph3n0m]

How many man-hours do you think that kind of spec would take? TBH, with no back-end programming or content creation involved I think that paying over €2-4k for something like this would be criminal. (Just in case anyone wonders, I not a designer.)

Let's call a spade a spade - the above is often going to be 2 templates (homepage and content page) and I think the last 2 points in the spec are extraneous. In fairness, I don't know how long it takes to design (that's why I ask about man-hours), but the above spec doesn't even include a modicum of copywriting.

For €5-6k+ I would expect a full CMS (most especially if I'm going to get hammered when I want to add a new product page).

Of course, if you design very innovative and creative front-end then paying a premium for that design is accepted.

Perhaps I'm going too far against the grain here?

I tend to agree here - brochure sites are a dime a dozen these days, and to pay 2K plus for one, is, well insanity. I would expect to deliver some kind of CMS if the price starts hitting the thousands.

And yes I am a developer - of websites (insert evil laugh)

 

[louie]

Lets be realistic here. 1K for something without CMS should be well than enough. It can not take you more than 2-5 days to get something like that together.

Let's call a spade a spade - the above is often going to be 2 templates (homepage and content page) and I think the last 2 points in the spec are extraneous.

He's right, 2 templates to be done, and once the customer is happy with that the rest is flower on your ears.

 

[Redfly]

Lets be realistic here. 1K for something without CMS should be well than enough. It can not take you more than 2-5 days to get something like that together.

I'm afraid I do not agree. Being honest, a really nice website can be done up in photoshop in a day or two, split and exported to HTML and put online. All well and good. But that's not web design or development. So much more has to be done. Accessibility and usability have to be taken into consideration. Have you any idea how difficult it is to get a nice looking site to conform to all three WAI levels, be intuitive, be browser tested, be user tested, be semantically sound and STILL look good?

Clearly not. No offense, but a "brochure" site is not an excuse for cheap workmanship. If you asked a printing company for a hard copy brochure for your business and it was handed to you on poor quality paper, printed off a dot matrix printer and stapled together then you would you feel your 2000 Euro was well spent? Did you really want that in the first place?

See what I'm getting at here?

 

[RedCardinal]

Accessibility and usability have to be taken into consideration. Have you any idea how difficult it is to get a nice looking site to conform to all three WAI levels, be intuitive, be browser tested, be user tested, be semantically sound and STILL look good?

I didn't see AAA in the spec Dave? And let's be honest, most designers are not coding to web standards, they're coding to DW/FP standards. As for semantics - very few people even understand the word... (present company excepted of course)

 

[Redfly]

I didn't see AAA in the spec Dave? And let's be honest, most designers are not coding to web standards, they're coding to DW/FP standards. As for semantics - very few people even understand the word... (present company excepted of course)

Fair enough, it wasn't in the spec, but shouldn't it be by default? It's not about doing a job to the bare specs, it's about doing it right.

As I mentioned, we have many clients that come FROM other web design companies with some horror stories about how they are treated. It is the web design companys JOB (IMHO) to educate the client.

If you go to buy a car, don't you think you should be told about the dodgy engine or fan belt? Don't you think you should be told that it will break after x miles? (I know we're not talking about a site breaking per se) Just because the car moves, doesn't mean it's worthy to be sold. Even if it is cheap.

 

[EdenWeb]

It' be different if we were all selling iPods but we're not. And because it's a creative service and not a commodity, then you'll find prices vary hugely.
Also, the profiles of people building sites varies hugely too.

Without talking specifics, we would charge the upper end of those figures for a brochure site. There are people charging more and less in either directionso there really is no set figure.

I've had a blog post in draft for several months. But basically, you'll attract the clients you deserve based on your pricing. Some clients would baulk at paying certain figures while other clients would not spend less than X amount since they would worry that your price did not reflect the importance of their projects.

 

[Redfly]

Some clients would baulk at paying certain figures while other clients would not spend less than X amount since they would worry that your price did not reflect the importance of their projects.

I'll have to agree there. That's why I like to meet with all clients rather than do it over email or the phone. You get to find out exactly what category the potential client falls into. As David mentioned in the original post, it's about perceived value.

I prefer to go through EVERYTHING at a meeting with a client and outline why it costs the way it does and be able to justify it. Which I'm not doing a very good job of in this thread)

I guess there will always be DW/FP "Designers". Their market is the budget conscious consumer, ours is the quality conscious who is interested in how their website can help their business.

 

[ButtermilkJack]

...I'm asking this question because I came across a site (www.RIPE.ie) that offer web design services for 595 euro and 795 euro for a flash version....

Hmmm, no space between 'ApproachTo' on the logo, and a lowercase d for design when all other words are Initial Cap. It's the little things I notice

As for quoting on the job spec above, I would say €2k - €3k would be enough. As mentioned before, it's only really 2 pages to be designed. These can be easily checked for standards/compatibility etc. This is the part I would charge highest for. Adding the content afterwards would be charged at a lower 'production' rate I guess.

EDIT: Just saw this on their 'contact page'...

Ripe price websites only €595…. Competitors price €2,200

As far as I was aware, you can't make a claim like that without back-up? It's amazing what people will say in order to fool customers. Shame really.

 

[davidbehan]

I have read Brendon Sinclairs Web design business kit from sitepoint and it covers this a lot. There is nothing regarding coding or actual web design in it. It's all about the client side of stuff and charging what you're worth. Perceived value.

I read this too a few years back. Great read. It teaches you a lot about perceived value and that by charging a higher price, your prospect actually perceives that they will be getting a better service from you and go for your services. I studied this in college as well... all about perceived value. I think it's the most important thing here. Oh, I lost my business kit folder ages ago. All I have left is my copy of the cd-rom on harddrive (I still use the docs as a basis... there quite good). Any chance I can get a lend of yours??? It'll be an excuse to meet up and talk business too!!!

How many man-hours do you think that kind of spec would take? TBH, with no back-end programming or content creation involved I think that paying over €2-4k for something like this would be criminal. (Just in case anyone wonders, I not a designer.)

I'd actually estimated about 6 actual man days and at my daily rate, that puts me in the 3k-5k bracket. TBH... I can and have done sites for <2k but to do so, you have to cut back on certain things to make it worth your while. When I'm doing a site, I like to put the extra effort in and put nice features, and actually get time to think about the site and not do it like a robot, etc. You get what you pay for at the end of the day and if a client only wanted to pay 1-2k (I normally point them elsewhere but occasionally they are done)... you can't give them the full all round service. You're right redfly... they want a 10k+ website for less than 5k (or 5k+ for less than 2k). There are people out there that say they do them but they are not always up to scratch and the quality of the work shows it. A couple of years ago, a client said to me that they could get a site done for half the price (or less) from someone else. I replied with (very gracefully and with no offence) - "get it done by them, i don't mind but I'm looking forward to meeting with you again when you are asking me to fix your site and at that point my prices will be higher" and they like you for it and give you the job (to my surprise at the time). It was something to that effect and I use a similar approach in similar circumstances (i reword it of course so I don't offend the client and get thrown out of the office on my ear but you get my meaning).

In fairness, I don't know how long it takes to design (that's why I ask about man-hours), but the above spec doesn't even include a modicum of copywriting.

In my quotes, I provide a price with the essentials and include optional extras for the clients to consider. I must talk to you about the copywriting/seo options for future clients.

I tend to agree here - brochure sites are a dime a dozen these days, and to pay 2K plus for one, is, well insanity. I would expect to deliver some kind of CMS if the price starts hitting the thousands.

Not necessarily... sometimes it is just as easy to use a cms for a website as it is to do it static. I would not be charging too much extra for a standard cms but if it is for a complicated cms with uploads, image optimisation, xml feeds, newsletter management, subscriber management, etc. - well then, you are talking more!!!

I didn't see AAA in the spec Dave? And let's be honest, most designers are not coding to web standards, they're coding to DW/FP standards. As for semantics - very few people even understand the word... (present company excepted of course)

That's amended. redfly is right... it should be included as standard. It's only been this year since I have really been practising higher standards of coding. I dropped kicked FP out about 6/7 years ago and I only use DW for the colour coded code view and design preview split. Everything I code these days is handwritten and IMO... when you get to this stage, it is much easier and quicker to do then use the ready made functions of those programs.

I'll have to agree there. That's why I like to meet with all clients rather than do it over email or the phone. You get to find out exactly what category the potential client falls into. As David mentioned in the original post, it's about perceived value.

I guess there will always be DW/FP "Designers". Their market is the budget conscious consumer, ours is the quality conscious who is interested in how their website can help their business.

Yes, agreed, and the sooner you find out what category they fall into, the better. I've been reading a nice little chapter from The Business Bathroom Bible called Death Valley and it basically says at the end of your meeting, arrange the next meeting to discuss your proposal and bring the proposal with you. The response will tell you if the client really wants to move ahead, this is a pricing exercise, the time isn't right, there is a major budget constraint, etc.

I prefer to go through EVERYTHING at a meeting with a client and outline why it costs the way it does and be able to justify it. Which I'm not doing a very good job of in this thread

Don't worry... I'm here to help you!!

I think this is a nice little discussion so far. Thank you for the replies. In final closing in this post, let me just say that there is a number of different levels of service quality that can be provided to a client. This is not what you say is the quality... it is what your clients perceive to be the quality. However, we know that there are a few different levels and for example now: there are 3 levels of quality - ok, good and great - the problem is if I was selling the great quality and only providing the ok quality but still charging for at great quality rates. This is where are industry has gotten it's bad name in the past but it seems to have healed from it. Another problem is not realising you should be in the great bracket price wise when you are actually providing that level of service but not charging for it. That's another matter altogether I suppose... or it could be regarded as value for money!!!

It's all economics at the end of the day too... I'd rather be doing a less projects at higher standards and getting paid better, than actually doing more projects at lower standards and probably getting the same (or less) for it. I don't want to work myself into an early grave!!!

 

[davidbehan]

Any further thoughts anyone? Did I scare everyone away or something?!?!?!

 

[TheMenace]

I'm with Dave on this one. Saying that best practice isn't in the spec so we'll knock out something shoddy in Frontpage with font tags and spacer.gif's is ludicrous. That's the whole problem with working in this industry as the moment. Clients are being duped by people selling them crap that 'will do' and talented, knowledgeable designers are being undercut by cowboys pretending to be talented and knowledgeable.

 

[enzo]

Price fixing

Does this thread not amount to price fixing ... and activity which I assume the forum hosts could get in a spot of bother for?
On a previous forum I used to visit (tens of thousands of computer professional members) such topics were banned.

Anyway ... it sounds a bit expensive to me ... not that's i'm a professional designer (got stung on one of my first jobs so gave up).

Let's see..
1. Site plan, gathering content, blah blah blah ... 5 hours?
2. Get your template (or two sorted) ... 15 hours?
3. Debug in shit browsers i.e. IE5-6 ... 6-8 hours?
4. Accessibility etc ... 5 hours?
5. Build site (fill in content) ... 3 hours?
6. Fine tuning, dot the i's cross the t's ... 2 hours?

38 hrs * €60 = €2280 + "administration fee" = €2500
OR perhaps
20 pages @ €100/page = €2000 + fees.

 

[mneylon]

Does this thread not amount to price fixing ... and activity which I assume the forum hosts could get in a spot of bother for?
On a previous forum I used to visit (tens of thousands of computer professional members) such topics were banned.

I can't see why this sort of thread is an issue. It's a discussion of pricing in a sector where the pricing varies a lot. I don't have any issue with that and it's definitely not fixing - merely a discussion.

 

[enzo]

I can't see why this sort of thread is an issue. It's a discussion of pricing in a sector where the pricing varies a lot. I don't have any issue with that and it's definitely not fixing - merely a discussion.

Grand, well you're the boss

Tho. some might see it as price fixing ... any such "what do you charge" threads come very close to the line.

 

[RedCardinal]

Grand, well you're the boss

Tho. some might see it as price fixing ... any such "what do you charge" threads come very close to the line.

Enzo

I think you can see there is much discourse and disagreement about pricing, so I dont really think anyone could construe this as a price-fixing thread.

With so many web designers out there, you can be sure of a very diverse and healthy marketplace in which price fixing would probably be counter-productive.

Rgds

Richard

 

[louie]

To be honest no matter how much you try, you will never be able to fix a price for a website no matter if it has 3 pages or 20.
You might get a cutomer that wants 3 pages, but he wants to trow everything in there and make it very complex or he's just a pain in the neck that makes you feel sorry for taking the job.

 

[enzo]

Ok lads, I was just making the point that some might see it that way.
From Wikip...

"Under American law, exchanging prices among competitors can also violate the antitrust laws." + "It does not matter ... if the agreement is explicit and formal or unspoken and tacit."

The site I was a member of was American based, they considered it to be quite a serious issue. I've had threads pulled over it. In de aul EU we're a bit softer on the issue I reckon.